"Hey man! What is that, Bawch? Sounds like Motsart man! That's awesome, ahyuck..."

Here's my spiel about Harrison...

Yea, his chops are insane and impressive, but there's very little music to go along with them - TRUE. However, I think that if he wanted to write music with those kind of chops, we would have heard it already (Dr. Z?) and he himself would've been hard at work writing material. How do you make music from the diminished scale, and how can you say anything is "REAL MUSIC" to begin with (not to get all philosophical, but it is important). The one thing that distinguishes him from the rest - at least from my pov - is that he's not TRYING TO BE SOMEBODY, but occasionally it can sound like Gambale mixed in with Holdsworth. What'd you expect, he said he's been studying Frank's sweeping since day one and half if not all of Holdsworth's stuff is already 'out there.'

I don't know what to say, except that for one reason or another I really connect with Bellas' playing. Here are my top few guitar players at the moment:

* Shawn Lane
* Allan Holdsworth
* George Bellas
* Greg Howe
* Bernd Steidl
* di Meola, Henderson

I love Bellas' machine-gun style approach, and I am not going to lie about it. I love over-the-top guitar playing. One guy, while reviewing one of Bellas' albums on the Amazon.com site, wrote the following: "When you are that good, nothing that you do is bad, just misunderstood, or not understood at all." I found it striking enough that I still remember it, and I agree with it.

I am not saying that you are wrong to dislike his playing, just that I am not wrong either to admire it.

And j2, I am not negative about talent. It's just that I have never heard a full-length composition by Harrison. I mean, I have some difficult chops up my own sleeve, but I admit that I am not the best musician I have heard.

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Originally posted by CleanSweeper:
I believe that Marshall Harrison is fantastic at arranging concepts, especially the classical things he has done and the arrangments of some of the Chopin studies. Thaey are great chop builders that don't sound like "excersises", as far as composing abilities I guess that remains to be heard on a full length disc, but I have to say Marshall strikes me as someone who is taking so much in and building a truley amazing approach to his instrument. I take my hat off to a man so dedicated to improving himself as a player, and keep in mind I am sure he is still growing. He could be writing this extrodinary material and just waiting to release it. As far as George Bellas is concerned, I do find him to be an exciting player in that genre, and a very dedicated musician. It may not be jazz fusion but so what, he is making music that means something to him and reaching an audience. His cd roms may not be for everyone but they have inspired people to improve at thier craft, and you cannot deny they guy has chops and those chops work in the context in witch he is playing. He has appeared on many different albums and is relentless in his playing.....you have to admit the man plays with conviction, and that counts for alot...Peace

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Originally posted by Koeppe:
[B]On stage, Bellas would for sure blow off anybody on this site (with the exception of Frank Gambale and Derryl Gabel). B]

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I think not......

Btw, I respect shredders totally. Not my cup of tea, but I am friends with many and am blown away by their technical prowess.

Scott

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Originally posted by Koeppe:
Bellas is for sure good for what he does. Some responses to this tread just proved my opinion that many jazz/fusion fans/players tend to put down neoclassical/shred players, although they still have years to go to achieve their level of playing. I like jazz/fusion and neoclassical/shred equally, and it's this arrogance towards other genres I've only disocvered among jazz/fusion fanatics. I guess some shredder would never put down a jazz player only because he's not into that style of music. But the other way around, that often happens (especially on this board). On stage, Bellas would for sure blow off anybody on this site (with the exception of Frank Gambale and Derryl Gabel). On the other hand, I think that a GREAT fusion player (like Holdsworth, Howe, Garsed, Metheny, Gambale, Henderson etc.) would never put down a shredder just because he's into a different genre. That whole "Yngwie sucks" and "I'm better than you, because I can solo over changes and you can only do high speed arpeggios" thing starts to get on my nerves. Derryl Gabel once said something very true: you're only good at what you practice. So guys like Bellas spend more time on practicing arpeggios and scales, while guys like Henderson spend more time on improvising. Both are masters in their own style, but could you really say one is better than another, just because he has practiced something different?

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Wow, a lot of TRUE points here in this one!

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Originally posted by CleanSweeper:
Hey JonBjork.....I have heard your stuff and I am very impressed!! Keep me posted on upcoming stuff!!

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Originally posted by Pablo:
Personnaly i'm not at all blown away by these so-called shredders. I think that a guy like mike landau smokes all of them regarding the tone, the phrasing, the note choice, etc...
Speed is only a matter of practise, anyone with some spare time can achieve it, but improvising is much more difficult. I still can't figure out about the mechanics that goes in FG's head when he soloes over complex chord changes.

I'd be curious to hear bellas playing a slow blues without his stupid yngwie chops.

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Nahhh...I disagree with this comment. A shredder, to me, is a guy who REALLY plays the f-uck outta his axe. Hendrix shreds, Holdsworth shreds, Vai shreds, Yngwie shreds, Gambale shreds, Lucia shreds, Lane shreds, SRV shreds etc...

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Originally posted by hymen162:
Nahhh...I disagree with this comment. A shredder, to me, is a guy who REALLY plays the f-uck outta his axe. Hendrix shreds, Holdsworth shreds, Vai shreds, Yngwie shreds, Gambale shreds, Lucia shreds, Lane shreds, SRV shreds etc...

[This message has been edited by hymen162 (edited 08-27-2002).]

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Originally posted by Pablo:
ok i realize i was rude with george , but though what a silly haircut

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I've never heard of George Bellas to tell you the truth (I'm not too interested either since I have stopped searching for "shredders" along time ago).

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Originally posted by Pablo:

Peter North actually shreds, he is a guy who REALLY plays the f-uck outta his dick

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Who's Peter North?

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Originally posted by hymen162:
Who's Peter North?

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Originally posted by Pablo:
Personnaly i'm not at all blown away by these so-called shredders. I think that a guy like mike landau smokes all of them regarding the tone, the phrasing, the note choice, etc...
Speed is only a matter of practise, anyone with some spare time can achieve it, but improvising is much more difficult. I still can't figure out about the mechanics that goes in FG's head when he soloes over complex chord changes.

I'd be curious to hear bellas playing a slow blues without his stupid yngwie chops.

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Well man, you're exactly that kind of guy I was refering to in my post.

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Originally posted by Koeppe:
Well man, you're exactly that kind of guy I was refering to in my post.

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Dude, i was only stating my opinion not a fact. And i apologized for being rude with bellas. Sorry but you know nothing about the kind of guy i am, if you can't take other's opinions then i can't help ya. When i was a kid, i was into shred, the whole mike varney stuff, so i know what i'm talking about. This debate seems to be recurrent on guitarists boards.

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Originally posted by Pablo:
Speed is only a matter of practise, anyone with some spare time can achieve it, but improvising is much more difficult. I still can't figure out about the mechanics that goes in FG's head when he soloes over complex chord changes.

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(If what follows sounds rather childish, please excuse me.)

Speed and dexterity are physiological issues, and as such it is safe to say that not everyone is born with the same level of coordination and quick reflexes. Therefore it is unreasonable to say that anyone can become fast simply through practice. There is a certain level that is attainable by everyone -- say, the B- level -- but in order to reach the B+ and higher levels, one must be born with the coordination and reflexes.

The situation is similar with athletes. I am sure that EVERY NBA player practises very hard. Yet, Kobe Bryant and Allen Iverson are superstars. This has to do with inborn ability, not practice schedules; the latter only hones the former.

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Originally posted by shred2er:

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Okay, I'm off the soapbox now.[/QUOTE]

I totally disagree with this statement, professional sports and playing the guitar are completely different. I firmly believe that with enough discipline and practice anyone can play really "technical" stuff on the guitar. It may take awhile but it's not that difficult to do. Discipline is the BIG FACTOR here. Now, I'm not going even to get into the other 'factors' that truly separate technique heavy mindless hacks from the WELL PLAYED, THOUGHT-OUT, IMAGINATIVE, and EXPRESSIVE technical monsters, that's another story all together, *BUT* to SIMPLY make your fingers do tonnes of "gymnastics" on the fretboard is not that hard to do.

I also think it is far rarer to have a musician who can hear complex melodies in their head and be able to translate them onto the guitar than a guy who can sweep or alt pick fast. There are hundreds of guys who all sound like that.

I am not going to say that jazz is superior to shred or vice versa. They are different and each is GREAT. I do think that many of the fusion guys would have an easier time shredding because the harmonic content is much more basic (please don't flame).

Regarding the snob comment about jazzers, if you read the above posts you will see the opposite. It was said that no one except FG and Derryl could hang on stage with Bellas. In fact, the quote was that we would get "blown" away. I found this totally ridiculous and a snob attack against fusion and jazz players. I am not being arrogant, but I will get on stage with ANY shredder, any time, and not be "blown" away. I suspect that over a blues, funk, fusion, swing, bop, or reggae tune that most good fusion players will sound more at home.

This is not an attack against shred, just pointing out that there is a big world of guitar out there and shear speed is only one small part.

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Originally posted by jazbrokr:
[B]Not everyone can learn to shred. [B]

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Originally posted by hymen162:
You honestly believe that? Seriously.

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Originally posted by jazbrokr:
Yes, I believe it. I know people that no matter how hard they practice, they have sloppy technique. Not everyone has the neccessary coordination!

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In my experience as a teacher is seems that the problem with most people when it comes to technique, is the fact that they don´t HEAR when it´s not clean and synchronised.

If you don´t hear it yourself it´s almost impossible to fix the problem even if you are assisted by a teacher.

Same thing with people with poor timing, they simply don´t feel when their timing is off.

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Originally posted by jazbrokr:
Yes, I believe it. I know people that no matter how hard they practice, they have sloppy technique. Not everyone has the neccessary coordination!

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Originally posted by jazbrokr:
Not everyone can learn to shred. I agree that a certain amount of dexterity is required. Some people will never be able to do it.

I also think it is far rarer to have a musician who can hear complex melodies in their head and be able to translate them onto the guitar than a guy who can sweep or alt pick fast. There are hundreds of guys who all sound like that.

I am not going to say that jazz is superior to shred or vice versa. They are different and each is GREAT. I do think that many of the fusion guys would have an easier time shredding because the harmonic content is much more basic (please don't flame).

Regarding the snob comment about jazzers, if you read the above posts you will see the opposite. It was said that no one except FG and Derryl could hang on stage with Bellas. In fact, the quote was that we would get "blown" away. I found this totally ridiculous and a snob attack against fusion and jazz players. I am not being arrogant, but I will get on stage with ANY shredder, any time, and not be "blown" away. I suspect that over a blues, funk, fusion, swing, bop, or reggae tune that most good fusion players will sound more at home.

This is not an attack against shred, just pointing out that there is a big world of guitar out there and shear speed is only one small part.

In the end, learn as many styles as possible!

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Originally posted by Koeppe:

Okay, maybe it was a bit arrogant of me to say that, since I haven't heard any of you guys from that board play. I'm not even a great fan of Bellas myself and listen to lots of fusion stuff. I just wanted to make the point that it's arrogant of jazz/fusion guys to put down players like Bellas just because they're not into that style of music. It's totally true that guys like him would suck over a Be Bop or Reggae tune, but just because of that he's not a worse player than some Be Bop or Reggae guy, because these guys would suck ass as well when it came to neoclassical or metal.
It's just my experience with jazz/fusion guys I know in person (from music schools, not from the web) that they always laugh about metal/neoclassical players, making fun of them ("diatonic crap", "rock? ah, smoke on the water, haha" - you get to hear stuff like that in jazz school daily) but they never could even play a Pantera Riff for example with the right dynamics and agression, and they could never play that "diatonic crap" at the same speed and with the same conviction as the they guys they make fun of. The other way around, I have very seldom heard a rock/metal/shred guy make fun of a jazzer. That's what I wanted to say, fusion players have no right to put other players down, although many often think they're on top of the world musically (and often these guys think they're something better only because they listen to jazz and can't even play it themselves).
Hope to have solved that now.

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Originally posted by Koeppe:

Okay, maybe it was a bit arrogant of me to say that, since I haven't heard any of you guys from that board play. I'm not even a great fan of Bellas myself and listen to lots of fusion stuff. I just wanted to make the point that it's arrogant of jazz/fusion guys to put down players like Bellas just because they're not into that style of music. It's totally true that guys like him would suck over a Be Bop or Reggae tune, but just because of that he's not a worse player than some Be Bop or Reggae guy, because these guys would suck ass as well when it came to neoclassical or metal.
It's just my experience with jazz/fusion guys I know in person (from music schools, not from the web) that they always laugh about metal/neoclassical players, making fun of them ("diatonic crap", "rock? ah, smoke on the water, haha" - you get to hear stuff like that in jazz school daily) but they never could even play a Pantera Riff for example with the right dynamics and agression, and they could never play that "diatonic crap" at the same speed and with the same conviction as the they guys they make fun of. The other way around, I have very seldom heard a rock/metal/shred guy make fun of a jazzer. That's what I wanted to say, fusion players have no right to put other players down, although many often think they're on top of the world musically (and often these guys think they're something better only because they listen to jazz and can't even play it themselves).
Hope to have solved that now.

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We're cool.

BTW, I never put down shredders when they shred. I have put down shredders who try to play jazz (like Macalpine) because it is lame sounding in my opinion. This is not a snob thing, it is just my opinion that that particular guy sounds bad playing fusion. He sounds great on neoclassical, but his timing is all wrong on the jazzy stuff.

I will say that many shredders I know, and I know a lot, are not very good on anything but shred. The guys that diversify and learn other styles become less known as shred guys. For example, Greg Howe. He is not a shredder, imo.

I agree that many fusion or jazz guys would totally suck at shred so therefore no one has the right to put it down.

Scott

I took the time to visit the George Bellas site recently, and I gotta say, I found NOTHING musical about any of it whatsoever.

Just an opinion of course.

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Originally posted by jazbrokr:
Yes, I believe it. I know people that no matter how hard they practice, they have sloppy technique. Not everyone has the neccessary coordination!

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Ppl who don't progress no matter how hard they practice don't achieve it simply because they have false goals (subconciously don't WANT to do it) OR they don't believe they can do it, and link an air of mystery to the guitar or whatever. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with inborn ability. Ppl who don't progress are just playing for the wrong reasons. Trust me. If there's anyone on this board who would like to progress, all u need to know is - IT IS TOTALLY POSSIBLE to achieve anything u want with your playing. You just have to WANT to.

Belief and Desire are everything u need. ( and hands of course )

b9

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Originally posted by flat9:
Ppl who don't progress no matter how hard they practice don't achieve it simply because they have false goals (subconciously don't WANT to do it) OR they don't believe they can do it, and link an air of mystery to the guitar or whatever. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with inborn ability. Ppl who don't progress are just playing for the wrong reasons. Trust me. If there's anyone on this board who would like to progress, all u need to know is - IT IS TOTALLY POSSIBLE to achieve anything u want with your playing. You just have to WANT to.

Belief and Desire are everything u need. ( and hands of course )

b9

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That is so not true. Peoples brains are hardwired from a very early age. Some people are not going to possess the hardwired coordination to play well. You are kidding yourself is you believe that anyone can succeed at anything.

If this were true, you could learn to play piano like Chick Corea. If you don't have independence between hands, do not worry! You can teach yourself.

Just stretching the point.

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Originally posted by jazbrokr:
That is so not true. Peoples brains are hardwired from a very early age. Some people are not going to possess the hardwired coordination to play well. You are kidding yourself is you believe that anyone can succeed at anything.

If this were true, you could learn to play piano like Chick Corea. If you don't have independence between hands, do not worry! You can teach yourself.

Just stretching the point.

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Well..if that were the case, disabled ppl would just give up (on life). Disabled ppl are some of the world's greatest achievers aren't they.

Should I / we give up trying to learn Jazz / Fusion then?

If ppl can learn to smoke ( I don't BTW, I think it's disgusting), then it's actual proof that u can tell your brain to do exactly what u want it to...and it'll do it. The brain just requires the right QUESTIONS.

b9